Your Ultimate Guide to Salary Negotiations with Keri-Lynne Shaw, CEO of The Salary Bump

[00:00:00] Debbie Goodman: Welcome to On Work and Revolution, where we talk about what’s shaking up in the world of work. I’m your host, Debbie Goodman. I’m CEO of Jack Hammer Global, a global group of executive search and leadership coaching companies. We help find great leaders and we help develop them into even better ones. My main mission with all of my work is to help companies and leaders to create amazing workplaces where people and ideas flourish and thrive and do amazing things. And today we are joined by Keri-Lynne Shaw, who is an absolute powerhouse in the world of salary negotiation and career development. She’s the founder and CEO of The Salary Bump and Keri-Lynne, she prefers to be known as KL, has dedicated her career to helping people negotiate comp increases of 30 to 50%, which is pretty amazing, pretty eye popping. She has decades of experience as Chief People Officer in global multinationals, and so she has this really unique perspective on the intricacies and the delicate tightrope of compensation dynamics. KL is a LinkedIn top voice. She’s a sought-after speaker. She’s on a relentless mission to close the gap between what people earn and what they deserve.

And today we’re going to be talking about actionable strategies for successful salary negotiations, even in a tough job market for job seekers. So welcome KL.

[00:01:31] Keri-Lynne Shaw: Wow. If that’s not an intro, thank you. And I just really love your mission. You said something interesting about my background and I feel like we have a lot of similarities in terms of what we stand for and what we’re trying to do and impacting the world. I sat on both sides, so I know what the person on the other end is thinking in the interview process and in the negotiation process and bringing that to my clients.

And so helping people get in the driver’s seat is ultimately the great work that I’m doing, um, sandwiching that with, of course, some of my fractional work and getting inside companies and helping them to see that there are really opportunities to be more transparent about. Their comp philosophy and pay structures, but while we’re waiting for those companies to get on board, we’re going to give employees the tools to get it done.

[00:02:27] Debbie Goodman: Right. Because we could be waiting a little longer than we’d like, for all the onboarding. Um, nevertheless, it’s definitely happening in pockets here and there. And we love those organizations and those leaders. We just want a whole lot more of them. And so, now we’re going to really talk about how to empower individuals with some strategies and some tools, because we know that the salary negotiation space is, and to just go into even have that meeting and that conversation just fills most people with dread. So let’s talk about the mindset that one needs to apply when heading into the salary negotiation. Particularly, let’s talk about for a new role, because that may be different from when one is doing this, when you’re, uh, you know, Internal and wanting to get that next salary increase internally. So for a new role, how should one prepare for this type of salary negotiation?

[00:03:24] Keri-Lynne Shaw: You’re absolutely right. The mindset is so, so key. There’s a couple of things that come up for people. Um, one is their relationship to money. And one is their relationship to themselves and their own confidence in knowing their value and knowing their worth and the impact that they make. So one of the first things that I work on with my clients is understanding any of their limiting beliefs around money.

What is their relationship to money? Are we, is there a scarcity mindset? Um, is there an abundant mindset? Is there? A fear that they might look greedy. Is there an association on how they grew up? Right? Um, socioeconomic background also plays a factor in what you feel worthy of and or just grateful for. Um, so part of the work that we do is.

Get them grounded to what the market is actually paying. So we have facts because oftentimes when we think about mindset, the limiting beliefs are around emotion. So we want to unpack that. We want to try to flip that and to move that into a direction that’s going to actually give you confidence. But we also want to do the homework to get you grounded to the facts.

So those are two really important factors. And I would say the last one is really Understanding impact that you’ve made over your career and helping you frame that in a way that will be received in the way they want to hear it. Um, your hiring manager cares a little bit less about the fluff and cares more about.

Results. And so we really make sure that when we look at your resume and we look at your background, we tie that to impact. So the person on the other end is receiving it.

[00:05:16] Debbie Goodman: Okay. Wow. There’s a lot there. All right. So, um, walking into a salary negotiation is definitely not just about talking about what, um, what compensation you want, what benefits you want, and what, uh, base package you’re looking for. There’s a whole bit of, uh, rehearsal on, okay, what is my approach to thinking about what is my fundamental belief around the value of money and my self-worth?

So that’s a whole bit of an excavation into one’s personal approach to, um, to value. Um, so that’s an interesting piece, probably best done with a coach or an advisor. It’s hard to do that on your, on your own. Um, then facts. So let’s just talk about facts because. I know because we have an executive search firm and we are often guiding people.

We’re always guiding people on the salary negotiation piece, but facts and data are not always that easy to come by. So when you say facts, are you talking about actual, um, research into what the market is offering for a particular role?

[00:06:14] Keri-Lynne Shaw: Yeah. So, um, unfortunately, I mean, look, based on where you are in the world, there is greater or less access the majority of my clients are in the US. I have a lot in the UK I have some currently in India and I have several in Germany and a couple in France. So the market is very different wherever you are in the world and that just is based also on whether your country is more socialized or not Um, so your health care benefits and what the structures are inside the, your economy.

There are tools out there for you to be able to do the research. I do it on behalf of all of my clients with a special tool that extracts from a whole bunch of different data points. You can Google it. There are other ways for you to get grounded to what the market is actually paying  and I think the big thing to consider is that there is so much that goes into a package negotiation. My company’s called The Salary Bump. It’s a bit tongue in cheek because it’s actually way beyond just the salary, but Compensation Bump didn’t sound quite as cute. So, um, it’s The Salary Bump, but it actually is educating people what all the levers are that you have to pull because when you go into an interview, one of the first questions they’ll ask you is what are your salary expectations? You ask it probably as a recruiter.

[00:07:40] Debbie Goodman: Mm hmm. Mm

[00:07:42] Keri-Lynne Shaw: This is where people get tripped up. If they haven’t done the homework, we haven’t normalized the conversation around money. We don’t go to cocktail parties and say, how much do you make?

Unfortunately, because this has to start changing for us to start knowing what is a director level paid at your company? What does a senior manager pay? Do you have any idea? You know, if you don’t have any HR friends, how can they help you to understand the different levelling? Every company has different levelling, different locations. So there are so many factors and trying to talk more in total comp versus backing yourself into salary is my biggest recommendation. And always going back instead of even answering that question to say, listen, it would be really helpful if you could help me understand what the budgeted range is for the role.

And how is the company structured? How are their comp packages structured? Right. Is it higher on base and lower on bonus and equity? Is it lower on base and higher in equity? Well, then you’re going to have to convince me that I really believe in your company if you’re paying me more in equity and less than salary.

So you want to understand what their comp model looks like. And you can’t actually honestly, truthfully, and with the right data, be able to answer that question as one of the first questions that you get asked because you back yourself into a corner and you just don’t know. And it’s a very unfair question if I’m being honest.

And I don’t appreciate that it’s one of the first questions and I think a lot of companies need to change that and the recruiters and actually let’s, you know, give me background on the organization and include and be transparent about the compensation philosophy and also give me confidence that you’ve done your homework and that we know where you got this data.

[00:09:36] Debbie Goodman: Mm.

[00:09:37] Keri-Lynne Shaw: It’s a tricky one to answer that question and I highly encourage people to do the homework to get grounded in case you have no choice but to answer it, but I’ll give you my one biggest piece of advice and that is never answer the question in a dollar amount. Always answer it in a bigger picture, either range or compensation package as opposed to one amount that really could lock you.

[00:10:07] Debbie Goodman: Okay, so let’s give an example of what that sounds like. Let’s say I’m the interviewer or the hiring manager and I say, so, KL, tell me what are your salary expectations? What are you looking to earn?

[00:10:18] Keri-Lynne Shaw: Thank you so much for asking. What would be really helpful is if you could help me understand what the overarching comp philosophy is inside the organization and what’s been budgeted for this role.

[00:10:28] Debbie Goodman: Uh huh. Okay. That’s a really good response. So the first thing for anybody listening, is this question gets asked all the time. We do it as recruiters. We know that it’s a question that will be asked by either an HR person or a line manager who’s hiring. They want to know what your package expectations are, actually kind of want to know what you’re earning now, but there’s certain states in the U. S. and certain countries where that’s no longer actually allowed. In Africa and South Africa, where I’m from, it’s still pretty open ended. You can still ask that question, but that’s really what organizations are trying to fish for, they’re trying to fish for what are you earning now.

Can we make you a, some kind of increase on top of that and everybody’s happy. But in the US in particular, that’s not something that people can ask and they are really trying to get a benchmark on how much are they going to need to pay you in order to. And they’re also, just let’s be fair, they are trying to not pay more than they need to.

There are some organizations that will err on the side of generosity, but for the most part, they’re trying to see maybe, you know, there are certainly some organizations I see that they’re absolutely low ball. That’s their strategy out and out. Can’t stand that. But they don’t want to have to overpay.

Similarly on the candidate side, you’re not wanting to give away all your cards and put yourself in a corner by low balling yourself at a too low amount so that, the first step as I understand it is do your own research and in some countries there will be more accurate information than others.

These days, I imagine with AI tools, you’re probably able to get quite a lot of accurate information by asking the right questions to ChatGPT or Perplexity, so do your research. But then, when the question is asked, don’t give an answer. Ask some more questions because here’s the thing. Certainly what I see is that there could be a salary range for a type of role in a type of company, but depending on their comp philosophy, depending on the scarcity of talent, depending on a whole bunch of variables, unique to that organization, they may be willing to pay a lot more or a lot less for that particular. And you as an individual, as a candidate may also have more or less experience on in certain areas. And there’s no salary for a job. It should be like that, but there’s an experience, you know, there’s a, a, a wealth of experience or a lack of experience in certain, in certain areas, and how you are able to add value to an organization is ultimately what’s going to matter. So that’s mostly what I see on, on my side.

[00:13:16] Keri-Lynne Shaw: Well said, so well said. When it comes to when even if they ask you and they’re in a state where they can or a country where they can, what do you currently make? Again, try not to answer it. Make sure you have done the homework. ChatGPT has a beautiful tool called Salary Navigator, and it pulls and extracts from a bunch of different sources.

Always talk back in expectations. Don’t talk back in your current answer in your expectations, and those expectations are grounded in where you currently are with your new knowledge from your online tools, and hopefully having normalized this conversation within your network to have a greater understanding about what your value is, and then whatever you can extract out of your existing organization.

That will help you get grounded on. And it’s truly the best way for you to walk into that conversation. What I see, though, happening to me is they don’t do this before that first conversation, and you don’t have to do this homework more than once unless you’re applying for some really random roles. If you’re applying for a Director of Ecommerce, you only need to do this homework once and you will be grounded to knowing that. And then I have a tool that lists out all the different factors in your package. So you have a side by side comparison to be able to negotiate, list that out on a spreadsheet. You can keep it simple, just know where you currently are and then know where you want to be.

Don’t undersell yourself, and then if in fact you do ever have to talk money, always talk in ranges, and that gives you a little bit more flexibility. And the last thing I will say on that is your range. The low end of the range should be the number you’d be happy with.

[00:15:08] Debbie Goodman: Mm.

[00:15:08] Keri-Lynne Shaw: The high end of the range is the number you’d be over the moon with. The goal is to end up somewhere in mid to high end of that range. And even early in the conversation, you know, if a range is provided, let’s say. You get it out of them and they, they give you a range of 150 to 200, 000. Your response can be great. Thank you so much. That helps us get grounded. Help me understand what a candidate at the high level looks like for you. And then you write those notes down madly because. Your, the rest of your interview is then going to be focused on answering questions to that end and the impact on the higher end. So when you get down to the negotiation, you’ve already established that you are a candidate that should be paid at the high end.

[00:15:58] Debbie Goodman: KL, you just dropped like 10 different gems and pearls of wisdom there, so I’m just going to read too much in one sentence. Okay. So firstly, ChatGPT has a tool called Salary Navigator. If anybody is listening to this, about to go into an interview and hasn’t done that, come on, you’re missing a beat.

It’s so easily accessible to say, well, I didn’t know. No, there’s no excuse anymore. So that is such a great tool. Then KL has on her website a spreadsheet that is the list of not just this, the base salary bits, but all of the additional bits and pieces that make up a total comp. And so if you’re unaware of what you might also be able to ask for, we’re going to send you a link in the show notes, but I’ll say it here.

It’s www.thesalarybump.com. Go into the website and then there’s like a list of all the additional, not just benefits. We think of benefits usually as health insurance and 401k or retirement annuity or that kind of thing, but all of the other additional value add items that you could potentially add, because if a company says, we are so sorry, this is our top end of the money piece, we just can’t go any further and there are justifiable reasons why organizations might not be able to do that. Um, you can nevertheless add a bunch of other ingredients to the salary pie. So this will all be listed out for you there. The other thing that you didn’t mention is how many times do candidates actually do a bit of a role play because of this particular conversation, because finding your words and having had this conversation with a friend or a colleague is really important.

So that’s one of the pieces that I want to say is this conversation, do the role play because it’s what usually trips people up. You usually end up with like fluff in your mouth, can’t find the words on the back foot. Money’s a hard conversation to have for everybody, particularly for women. And so do the role play, have a little rehearsal before you go in to have this conversation.

[00:18:15] Keri-Lynne Shaw: Yeah, or do it in front of the mirror. I’m also trying to change the narrative that women, that negotiation is hard and that women are not great negotiators because I told myself that for 20 years, Debbie, and I don’t believe that to be true anymore. There are reasons why people don’t negotiate. Maybe it’s uncomfortable. Maybe it’s awkward, but it doesn’t have to be hard. And the sooner we can switch our mindset to know this is an empowering, beautiful conversation to have, that is a win-win conversation. And if you can set the stage for a win-win, you are 100 percent in the driver’s seat. But I think the problem is, and the reason why people have this discomfort with it is that when you think of negotiation, I think of attorneys and I think of a winner and a loser.

And that is not the environment that we’re trying to create here. Keep in mind, by the time someone gets to the point of offering you a job, they’re telling you they want you as part of their family. Come on, we want to have you here. And so you are automatically in the driver’s seat and you could even say this statement, Debbie, you offer me the job.

Thank you so much. First of all, we are never accepting anything immediately. We’re always taking 48 to 72 hours to digest it. So let’s be clear on that. But you offer me the job and I respond with thank you so much. This has been such a great process. Such a great experience. I’m really excited to take the time to go in and take a look at the offer, but one thing I do want to clarify and set the stage on is how do we create a win-win environment because in the end you want to feel valued and I want to feel valued. And then stop talking,

[00:20:14] Debbie Goodman: Mm hmm.

[00:20:14] Keri-Lynne Shaw: Then answer that question because creating and even making that statement, it already just, it just takes the breath. Okay. Now we can breathe again. Wow. What a nicer place to start in having this conversation, knowing we both want to walk away feeling valued.

[00:20:35] Debbie Goodman: hmm.

[00:20:36] Keri-Lynne Shaw: And that is a huge way for you to get in the driver’s seat.

And to put a different spin on it, I do want to say one other quick thing you’re chomping at the bit because I know you want to jump in on this one because it’s so important. But you as a candidate, depending on the kind of role you are applying for, let’s say it’s a sales function, maybe a finance function where you’re going to be negotiating with other people.

Wouldn’t it behove you to show your new employer how you negotiate effectively and create an environment that will then be translated to how you negotiate with clients and vendors and partners in the future?

[00:21:24] Debbie Goodman: I mean, absolutely. I mean, that’s a, a really good skillset to start displaying in the negotiation phase, essentially when one is receiving an offer and then saying, okay, we’d like to make sure that we’re all delivering mutual value to one another here, um, you’re essentially preparing for a counter offer.

Yeah. And this counter alphabet is sometimes where I’ve seen things go very south, if not implode entirely, depending on how it is handled. Um, and so it’s such a delicate, it’s such a delicate phase. Aside from the, you know, grounded in mutual value, mutual value statement. Um, and then stop talking because I know what happens when people are nervous, they just talk, talk, talk, talk, got to fill the air.

I’m a bit of a culprit of that. Um, but what, what should people avoid? When they are entering in this, yes, I’ve received this. It’s lovely, but it’s not quite enough. I’d like to ask for some other things in order that we can show mutual value. Um, what should they absolutely avoid in this counter offer negotiation space?

[00:22:35] Keri-Lynne Shaw: Oh, there’s probably a million mistakes that you can make. Um, the biggest thing I see is people, when they don’t stop talking, they end up negotiating against themselves and already lowering them out. So if the offer of the range was 150 to 200, 000 in our example of an Ecommerce director, and you know that you want to be at the high end of that range, and they offer you 150, you need to have some kind of a conversation in that initial offer to let them know that it’s on the low end of the range that we discussed. And based on our early discussions, my expectations would be that it would be on the higher rate of end of the range based on my market research and my experience. So, and then stop talking.

But obviously there are a lot of, you know, once they come back with whatever that number is, you can say, I’d like to take some time to go back through all the other elements of the offer. One of the things to avoid and be mindful of is when you’re made that offer, it’s usually salary, bonus, equity, maybe PTO, equity is not always included, right?

What happens is those, all those other benefits, car, gas, insurance, health insurance, to personal development, all the other elements that go into a package. You’re not talking about usually when that offers made, because those are all ancillary things that either HR just doesn’t put on the table or they’re not planning on offering you.

So don’t make the mistake of not talking about those things and don’t make the mistake of not also asking about the health care benefits. In my all of my years as a chief people officer no one has ever asked me for the price breakdown of health care, nor the package and in the US market, the health care benefit range is incredible. And you could be getting a 20 percent salary bump and be very happy with the salary bump and throw it all away because now your healthcare costs for your family have just gone up. Health care costs, for example, let’s say you don’t need health care because your spouse has health care and you’re on their health care plan, you can also negotiate that in your salary to say, well, what is the average cost per employee for health care inside your organization? You know, to close the gap a little further, maybe that’s 20, 000 a year and say, that could be something we could, you know, put on the table and the salary, because I won’t be needing those. So letting them know you’re going to come back to talk about further things beyond those elements that they’ve given you, is the biggest mistake that people make because they just get so excited that they got an offer and nervous because again, we’re talking about money and, um, that’s a new muscle that they’re building.

[00:25:47] Debbie Goodman: I have seen candidates walk away from an offer because they thought it was too low, or say, Oh, no, no, you know, throw their hands up in the air only to be brought back to the table by us with the HR team to actually look into the detail of a package and then realize how many additional benefits they were both financial and, you know, in financial value, if they actually looked at the total package to go, goodness, I didn’t realize actually how significant this was. And that’s excluding bonuses and excluding equity.

[00:26:24] Keri-Lynne Shaw: So shame on HR for not having a comprehensive view. Because part of their job is to attract these people to want to come and work with them, work for them. So your job in HR when you are making these offers should absolutely be comprehensive to let them know that you’ve put thought into this. You shouldn’t have to come back as the employee and ask for this. This really should be coming forward automatically. We recognize not all HR is buttoned up and beautifully structured, but the HRI brand was. And hopefully the HRs, the teams that you work with are, but this should really be happening already.

But if not, you need to know what all the different factors are. In fact, many of my clients, um, will get me paid for with either a sign on bonus, or if their existing company and we’re getting them promoted inside their organization, they will get me paid for as an executive coach. So there’s lots of different factors you can negotiate even when you’re in a current job.

[00:27:34] Debbie Goodman: To touch on one last thing because I’ve just looked at the time and we’re so running out. Let’s talk exit packages because this is still, I wouldn’t say we’re in sort of the height of, of riff and furlough and layoff season. I think, I’m hoping that we’ve done, but nevertheless, exit packages are a big deal and there’s a lot of negotiating power here or potentially some negotiating power here, so let’s hit some bullet points on that.

[00:28:02] Keri-Lynne Shaw: I’ll be happy to

[00:28:03] Debbie Goodman: Recommendations?

[00:28:04] Keri-Lynne Shaw: So one of the things that people don’t know is to listen carefully, friends, is that you can proactively ask for a package. So I have many clients that will come to me and say, KL, I’m just, you know, I’m feeling meh in my job. I’m quietly quitting. I want more. I don’t know exactly what that looks like, or I have a new job that I’m considering, but I’m not 100 percent sure about leaving my company or I’m in a really bad environment and I’m so stuck.

Like, I’ve got to get out. Whatever the reasons are, if you have an existing job, we can negotiate a proactive package because the market is so soft.

[00:28:45] Debbie Goodman: Hmm.

[00:28:46] Keri-Lynne Shaw: The market is so bananas, every company is thinking about their costs today and your head count is a cost. So proactively asking for a package to exit helps them not have to fire someone potentially having even been you that they would have had to have laid off in three months.

I guarantee every single organization right now, and this is not a bold statement. It is true statement. They are looking at their work structures. They’re looking at where they can cut costs. I had been HR for many, many companies, and I’ll tell you, we are always looking at. That personnel bucket, because unfortunately it’s the biggest one, the biggest P& L item inside the company.

So the company is always looking at cost and also looking at efficiency. So are we structured in the right way? So HR business partners and leaders are constantly talking about what do we need to be, how do we need to be set up for the future, how digital came to the table. We were all talking about, do we have enough digital functions?

Well, we have to rob from Peter to pay Paul. Because we can’t just add 50 new jobs. So how do we shift? How do we adjust? You know, there’s every day these conversations are happening. So unless you are a super, super hypo nine box, top nine box, number one performer in the company, I will bet. That they will say yes to a proactive package.

Now, the question is, how do I put that together? Um, some companies are very transparent on their packages. I would say two weeks to a month for every year served is about a standard depending on your level.

[00:30:31] Debbie Goodman: Mm hmm.

[00:30:32] Keri-Lynne Shaw: So there’s proactively ways to negotiate your package. And then there’s also clients will call because they just got laid off and they got a package offer.

And in every case, we’ve doubled their package. Sometimes and more, so they’re just like, they’re expecting you to negotiate with a job offer. They are expecting you to negotiate an exit package. And why wouldn’t you, what do you have to lose already? Let you go. So, but, you know, you really have nothing to lose at this point and you can do it in a way that is very thoughtful.

I don’t recommend you go in guns a blazing. I recommend you go in to say, listen, understand, you know, this is where we are as an organization. Thank you for being so respectful. Um, I’d really like to talk about the exit package and, um, given the market is so bananas and it’s taking people longer to fill, you know, defined roles.

I’d greatly appreciate if we can negotiate this. You can say it in a beautiful. Thoughtful and partnering kind of way. And that is my recommendation. Um, and the last thing I’m going to say on exit packages is depending on your level, um, it’s generally director and above, and you can jump in here, Debbie, if you’ve got additional thoughts on this, but I encourage every one of my clients to have an exit package included in their offer letter when they get a new job, especially in this market, especially with startups who are a bit more volatile and can just drop you like a hot potato in the US. We don’t have contracts. So you would want that to be included in your offer letter. There’s no protection from the government like there is in many other countries. So include that as a minimum. So CEOs, I recommend C suite, It’s 1 year. Um, VP to C suite, I encourage a minimum of six months, director usually three months is reasonable, but please feel free to weigh in. That’s just my thoughts on that.

[00:32:29] Debbie Goodman: Yeah. I would say that that is pretty US centric unless it’s sort of CEO level, which globally that we, you know, the kind of severance or exit package is something that would be negotiated upfront. We see that across the board, particularly with global multinationals, but for sort of VP, SVP level, much less common other than in the US and even in the US, I think it’s mostly in sort of tech, actually.

So, and in startup. But that is such a good point. People who are getting, who’ve been laid off and are, who have been accepting new jobs or sometimes just grateful to have the next thing and aren’t thinking about all the bells and whistles, because they’re just so grateful. So, you know, don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t.

Uh, don’t sort of cut your knees off when you are, um, when you are negotiating your package and exit packages and part of the exit package, not just the number, but also, you know, asking for a professional coach, professional development coach as part of that exit, because you want to have somebody on your side, who’s going to be, you know, supporting you through that, that exit, you know, you never think of the divorce when you get married, but you really should be. So consider this your, your sort of your pre-nup exactly.

[00:33:41] Keri-Lynne Shaw: Oh, so well said Debbie. So well said. Yes. Yes. And yes, you have to think about protecting yourself. It’s just an environment that is not normal. Um, and that it will shift, right? It’s a seller’s market today. It was a buyer’s market some months, some years ago, right? After the pandemic, during the pandemic.

We will get back to some normalcy, but in the meantime, protect yourself and, you know, again, you just have a lovely conversation around the package say, you know, my, in my experience, including, um, exit in the offer letter is standard and I’d like for that to be considered as well.

[00:34:22] Debbie Goodman: Or you can say KL and Debbie told me to, so, uh, listeners, you can find KL on LinkedIn as well as her website, www.thesalarybump.com. Um, there’s been so much information here. It can be a little overwhelming. So, you might want to have some additional coaching. She’s available for coaching keynotes. She operates as a fractional CPO. This has been an absolute delight and a pleasure.

Thank you so much for joining me today, KL. We will no doubt be speaking again soon.

[00:34:51] Keri-Lynne Shaw: Thank you for having me.

[00:34:53] Debbie Goodman: Bye now.