Why Top Talent Leaves: Debbie Goodman on Flexibility, Leadership and Retention

[00:00:00] Debbie: Hello everyone. Welcome back to On Work and Revolution, where we talk about what’s shaking up in the world of work. I’m your host, Debbie Goodman. I’m CEO of Jack Hammer Global, a global group of executive search and leadership coaching companies. We help find great leaders and we help develop them into even better ones.

My main mission with all of my work is to help companies and leaders to create amazing workplaces where people and ideas flourish and thrive and just live their best work lives. And today we are diving into a topic that’s both close to my heart and my business. Why your top people will leave you. Okay, buckle up.

Because this isn’t your typical, let’s talk talent retention fluff. It’s hardcore from the headhunting trenches, data backed information that every leader and manager should know. Okay, let’s kick things off with a 2025 reality check. We are smack in the middle of the greatest phase of workplace disgruntlement.

The likes of which I’ve not really seen in all my years running an executive search firm. When I say disgruntlement, what I mean is a level of discontent about one’s workplace that is sufficient to cause a top performer. Those so called A plus player people, the game changer that rarely shifts the needle.

Oh my god, I just used three horrible cliches in one sentence. Anyway, workplace dissatisfaction that is enough to cause people you would not even imagine to eye the door. Okay, so why? What’s happening right now in workplaces in both the US and throughout Africa, which are the two main geographies that Jack Hammer Global focuses on.

I’m diving right in with the return to office trend, which I know most people just don’t want to hear or talk about anymore. I know you just like you’ve got RTO fatigue, but this is causing more talent erosion than you can imagine. Okay. So the first rule of the leadership rule book, okay, maybe not the first, but it’s somewhere in there, is that once you’ve given people a benefit, which they value highly, If you remove it, it’s going to cause problems.

And what people have valued very highly is workplace flexibility. And I’m not just talking about needing to be fully remote. I’m not even talking about structured hybrid. I know these are very hard to achieve in certain circumstances, but workplace flexibility is just that having a say in when and where you work from time to time.

One of my favourite authors, Daniel Pink has a rubric for employee happiness, engagement, motivation. He says there are three factors that impact how happy an employee is, and that is autonomy, mastery, and purpose. And flexibility fits into that first element autonomy. Self-determination. If you remove that, then one of the key pillars is gone.

Now here’s some interesting data that’s worth noting, and apparently this is US data. 76 percent of CEOs are demanding full return to office within 3 years. But here’s the kicker, companies pushing those strict mandates, they’re seeing 32 percent higher attrition. You heard it, one third of their people are either walking out the door or starting to head towards that.

They’re definitely exploring options. Now we know that in some instances, this kind of RTO thing, it’s a deliberate attempt to get people to quit. It’s the so called quiet firing. We’re seeing it in the U S with federal employees, et cetera. Um, frankly, if you want your top people to leave, this is an effective strategy.

But imagine your top 30 percent of your people leaving your company. I mean, talk about talent erosion. in case you’re wondering how this translates into African markets, what we’re seeing in South Africa is a bidding war for tech talent in particular. I’ve seen data that shows that top developers in Joburg and Cape Town can earn an average of 22 percent more working fully remotely for European or US based companies.

Now, South African companies might not be able to compete on package. But they might be able to come to the party in other ways. Now, if you can’t even offer hybrid or flexible work, you’re not even in the game. In other words, flexible work is just like, not optional. It’s in some instances it’s survival.

Here’s another data point for you. 76 percent of the professionals we’ve headhunted for new roles in the past few months. These are top people. Okay. They are open to looking at new roles if they are hybrid or remote. So people, it’s not a perk anymore. It is a deal breaker. I came across another piece of really interesting data for all you CEOs out there who are clinging to your collaboration culture argument.

Yes, I know that it is so much easier to feel like you’re collaborating when you’re in person. Now McKinsey did some research and they found that hybrid teams are 15 percent more productive than people in office. 15% okay. So put that in your pipe. Okay. So I know for many leaders, you wish this particular conversation would just go away.

I’m here to tell you it’s not. Don’t fall into the trap of thinking, Oh, everyone else is demanding return to office. So let’s just do that too. Let’s go back to the way things were. It’s so much easier, better, more this, more that. What it is more of, is a sure way to impact talent erosion. Okay. Now I could go on and on about this first point, workplace flexibility.

It is a very key primary reason why your top people will leave if you don’t offer it and another company does, or if you previously offered it and now you’ve taken it away, be prepared for talent flight. Okay, but I’m moving on to my second most likely reason your top people will leave or stay for that matter Here’s the bombshell.

It’s all about you your managers and the culture of your team Okay, so you might be thinking nah, isn’t it all about the money and I’m here to tell you wrong Dead wrong. We’ve interviewed thousands of candidates who aren’t even actively job hunting. Guess what? 63%, that’s nearly two thirds, say they jump ship because of a toxic boss or a dysfunctional team.

Money barely makes the top three in my lineup. So let me hit you with another stat that’ll make you spit out your coffee. 77 percent of employees would rather take a pay cut than work under a micromanager. You heard that right. They’d rather earn less than deal with a boss that’s breathing down their neck and being a jerk.

And these numbers are global. Whichever sample pool you choose to look at, a very large number are motivated to leave because of their boss. I found the Nigerian workplace report that showed 68 percent of under 30s would quit over a toxic boss, even in a recession, here’s the summary, people, you need to be paying attention to what the heck your managers are doing, saying how they communicate, how the people feel every day when they arrive at work, whether it’s in person or virtually.

Do you know, have you asked them? I’m not talking about some kind of digital survey. Okay. You’re not going to get accurate data and information from that. But if you see a pattern of people leaving, dig into it. You may find there’s a common denominator, or you might find it’s not just one particular person.

It may be that there’s a cultural issue. Ask this one question of your people. Okay. How do you feel when you make a mistake, when you do something incorrectly or miss the mark with a piece of work or a project? I’m not talking about like ongoing poor performance. Okay. So let’s just put that to the side.

I’m talking about like a genuine error. This is very revealing. When people are terrified to make mistakes, even small ones, this is a good indicator that there is something going on that needs paying attention to. All right. And then coming in at number three, why will your top people stay or go? Yes, sometimes it is about the money, but not in the way that you think.

When we speak to candidates who not actively looking for a job, we always ask them, what would motivate you to make a move? And if money comes up as the top or primary reason we ask, so what type of numbers would you be willing to leave for? And in these instances, when it’s only about the money, They usually put some pretty ridiculous number on the table.

They usually say something like, Ah, it would need to be something that I just couldn’t refuse. Like double my current package. Now here’s the thing. 99 percent of the time, these types of crazy package offers are unicorn dreams. They don’t exist. They’re mostly urban legends. If money is the only reason to move, then it will need to be a super amazing financial offer.

A good offer alone doesn’t actually cause people to move. If people have a great work environment, flexibility, love their boss or their team, are getting ongoing professional development opportunities, then an incremental or good enough financial offer doesn’t really move the needle or the talent. In these instances, it’s only when there are these other push or pull factors that money will certainly have

 some influence. Okay. And as for those like fancy perks that some companies invest a lot in the ping pong tables, the free lunches, the nap pods, it turns out they are meaningless when stacked up to the first two factors. Yeah, for sure. They make for a nice, fun, pleasant space. Everyone likes a lunch paid for by the company, but you think it’s going to do anything at all when stacked up against flexibility or a horrible work culture?

Nope. No one stays for that. So, knowing that your top people have options and that they are possibly being offered alternatives from time to time. What’s the maverick solution here? All right, here’s the good news. There’s no real maverick or out of the box solution needed. It’s actually pretty simple.

 Just stop guessing what your people want and start asking them. Conduct stay interviews. These were all the rage during the great resignation, which was actually a real thing in the US during, during and post pandemic for a while. Instead of just conducting exit interviews when people had handed in their notice, some more progressive companies actually started doing stay interviews, particularly with their top people.

So if you’re not doing that, start now. Find out what matters to your best people. If there have been any changes to their level of flexibility, find out how they’re coping. Then listen closely to what people are saying about the quality of their colleague relationships, their managers, their direct reports, and make sure you are paying your top people well and equitably.

It all comes down to this. Just treat people well, that’s it. That’s the way you keep your top people. I mean, I didn’t have to Talk for 15 minutes. I could just have said that I suppose The remedy for how you stop your top people from leaving just treat them well. Full stop Okay, so maybe my editor is going to cut out everything I said before Uh or not, that’s it for today folks.

Thanks so much for listening. Bye now