Ronak Gopaldas on Africa’s Brain Drain and the Case for Talent Return

[00:00:00] Debbie Goodman: Hello everyone and welcome back to On Work and Revolution, where we talk about what’s shaking up in the world of work. I’m your host, Debbie Goodman. I’m CEO of Jack Hammer Global, a global group of executive search and leadership coaching companies. We’re also Africa’s largest executive search firm.

We cover 24 countries with on the ground presence in all the main markets. And I am just back from the Africa CEO Forum in Abidjan, which, it was actually amazing. I was a panelist at a round table covering a really big pain point for companies throughout the continent, the African brain drain, which is essentially the story of talented Africans leaving the continent in search of better work, education, safety opportunity, you name it. And the conversation was robust. there were lots of opinions and commentary, but I was left feeling that we’d only like, just scratched the surface and I wanted to dig a lot deeper.

 So you know, the game show, who wants to be a millionaire, where you can phone a friend for answers? Fortunately, I have extremely smart friends and colleagues, so I decided to call Ronak Gopaldas to help me unpack this, and he agreed to be a guest on today’s show where we’ll be talking about the African brain drain and asking the big question, which is, can Africa win its talent back?

So let me do a proper intro. Ronak Gopaldas is a sharp, smart, bold voice on African markets. He’s director at Signal Risk where he helps businesses and governments to navigate Africa’s very, very complex political and economic terrain. He’s a very sought after writer, a media commentator, faculty member at Gibs Business School.

He’s a TEDx speaker and I think an expert who has spent his career decoding risk policy and, and essentially power on the continent. And he’s also somebody who’s not afraid to flip the script and challenge the status quo, which is why I’ve invited him here. Welcome Ronak.

[00:02:15] Ronak Gopaldas: Thanks for having me, Debbie, and thanks for that very kind introduction.

[00:02:18] Debbie Goodman: Always kind. Okay, so scene. Let’s just talk about the idea of this African brain drain. ’cause it’s a term that is often used to describe the flow of essentially highly skilled, talented people leaving the continent for opportunities elsewhere. And then a big part of the story is also students. Many of Africa’s brightest young people or those who can afford it, go abroad to study at top universities and then they end up building careers overseas.

And they gain this incredible experience and exposure, but then they don’t come back. And so my question at a high level is, is this outflow of talent something that we should be trying to prevent, or is there a smarter way to think about how Africa could still benefit even when its top talent chooses to leave?

[00:03:13] Ronak Gopaldas: Thanks, Debbie. That’s a great question. Um, but I think, you know, we need to frame this, this challenge a little bit differently because it’s both a challenge and an opportunity and we need to go a little beyond. Bit beyond the binary thinking that has kind of characterized this debate for a long time. So in the past it was brain drain versus brain gain.

It was talent migration versus talent retention. And in the modern world, you know, when we’ve had so much globalization where migration is a fact of life, um, it’s a little bit reductive. So I think we need to frame it a little bit differently because people are gonna move whether we like it or not.

Whether it’s kind of blue collar workers, white collar workers, whether it’s physically or digitally or moving tax wise, people move for opportunity, for challenge, for change, for love, and we need to frame it as more a question around talent engagement rather than talent retention. So how do we design the ecosystems that make it easy for Africans who go abroad to stay connected, invested, and to impact Africa positively. What are the win-win strategies? And to do that, first we need to really understand why people are leaving. Are there push or pull factors? You know, in 2015 we had Nene gate, in South Africa, we saw a mass exodus.

[00:04:25] Debbie Goodman: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:26] Ronak Gopaldas: because people stopped trusting the system and the governance system, right? In Nigeria, they’ve come up with a, with a term for it called Japa. And we’ve seen this massive exodus to places like Canada. And we’ve gotta ask the questions, are people leaving on a permanent basis, on a temporary basis? Is it push or pull factors? Do they want to come home? Because I think that then allows us to, to design effective strategies.

And then, we need to take this holistic view as well because even though talent is globally mobile and sits outside of our borders, it can still have a local impact In the modern world where digital, reach is so accessible. You know, we can still kind of engage with people who are abroad from Africa, tap into their ip, their remittances, their networks and their ideas.

And you know, we’re seeing this in, in things like sport. You know, so many springbok players play in places like Japan and in Europe. Cricketers play in places like the IPL. So the work is global, but they still turn out for their national team. They still play in domestic leagues. They still have a local impact.

So I think, you know, in the past we’ve kind of viewed it a certain way for obvious reasons, and it’s been quite an emotive debate, but I think if we take a more sober and more strategic view of this, we will realize that it’s not a one size fits all approach. So you kind of need to be quite adaptive and then we need to create the right incentives I think.

[00:05:49] Debbie Goodman: Okay, so you’re completely right in that this is not a one size, fits all approach, both in terms of why people leave. And then what, and then not just why might they return, but in which way might they return or still contribute or as you say, engage. Because I think we do, we have thought about it as people leave physically, they go work elsewhere, they build their lives elsewhere.

And then what do we need to do in order to bring them back, both physically as well as in terms of the work that they do. And I do love the idea about, sports professionals who can do both. In some ways, they can, perform on a global stage and then they still can contribute to their local country.

 wouldn’t it be amazing if we could do that for people generally, but I mean, we’re jumping in the gun. We’ve gotta actually start with jobs because that is one of the key reasons why people leave. And different countries have got different reasons ’cause Africa’s not one thing. So let’s be clear about that.

Why somebody would leave South Africa versus why they might leave Nigeria, could be similar, but two very different, reasons. And there’s all those personal factors involved too. but we do know that overall a lot of it is about the ability to build a life of prosperity and the question around, can one do that in one’s home country or is there a greater likelihood that one would be able to do this abroad?

That is one of the key reasons why people go, yes, we can put crime and safety and all the rest into it as well. It’s not a non-talking point. And so then the corollary of that would be, well, if they go there in to build prosperity and have great jobs. Let’s just talk jobs. ’cause a key incentive to bring people back is that, and not just any kind of jobs, because a lot of Africa’s employment is, I mean, we know there’s the informal market.

Nobody’s coming back for that or low skilled, jobs. And that’s not the magnet that we’re looking for. And if we wanna create work that either keeps people here or brings them back, then what do we need to build?

[00:07:50] Ronak Gopaldas: Yeah, so I mean, that’s great framing. I think we need to start with demographics, right? Because there’s a big contrast between, you know, what’s happening in Africa and what’s happening in other parts of the world, the so-called weird countries, western, educated, industrialized rich, and democratic.

[00:08:07] Debbie Goodman: Wait a second. So now I haven’t heard this term before. Tell me again, ’cause I may, I’m imagining listeners have not either Go again on the weird countries?

[00:08:14] Ronak Gopaldas: So weird countries. Basically short time for the west, Western, educated, industrialized, rich, and Democratic. Yeah, so you know, what we’ve seen with, um, with these weird countries is that they’re greying and nobody’s having babies, and we’ve got these labour shortages, which have been accelerated since the pandemic.

So that’s a general theme in OECD nations and the so-called Global North. But at the same time, in Africa, we’ve got the youngest working age population in the world. By 2050 in four people are gonna be from Africa. And so there’s this potential advantage, right? And when people talk about demographics in Africa, you get your population optimists and you get your population pessimists, right?

And the decisions we make and the policies we adopt is gonna determine whether this is gonna be a success or, or failure. So. Logically in a world where the West and these weird countries have these labor shortages and gaps, and we’re not creating sufficient jobs across the African continent.

You know, 12 million new, workers come into the workforce every year, and we cannot absorb all of them. Logically, you’d think that this is an opportunity. at the same time, the problem in Africa is that we’re experiencing urbanization without industrialization. So. People are moving to the cities, but they’re not getting the jobs, the infrastructure can’t keep up.

And if that continues to happen, we’re gonna have social upheaval and social problems, right. So what are the choices in this context? I think you can either export the surplus labor, which is what a lot of countries are starting to do. Countries like Kenya, are sending workers to the UAE, the Gulf, to Germany, or you can go radical like China did with its one child policy. But I think culturally and politically that’s too toxic to work in Africa or you, you start to think a little bit more strategically. And, in the past we’ve always thought about beneficiation in Africa as, something that we need to do.

You know, the, the criticism has been we export the raw minerals and we import the refined product and we don’t feature in the value chain. And, that’s not the right way to do it. But maybe we need to think about this a little bit counterintuitively when it comes to people. Because if we export the raw talent and they learn skills, they develop capital, they build networks, and they come back, that can be a net gain.

So, you know, from diaspora and remittance financing, from a knowledge transfer perspective, from people who come back and use their skills and capital to start businesses. So I think the challenge that we are gonna have in Africa is, even when our talent goes abroad, how do we create the physical, digital, and policy infrastructure so that we are not just exporting talent and not benefiting, but we become a labor hub rather than a simple source or of labor export to do these menial jobs.

So I think it’s about creating the circular flow of talent and migration so that we can actually benefit from it. That’s, the crux of it. almost the beneficiation of brains, so

[00:11:13] Debbie Goodman: Yeah, I mean, look, I, once again, I think that this is a, this has gotta be addressed at many different levels and in many different ways. I was reading, some data that said that by 2030, there are gonna be 230 million jobs in Sub-Saharan Africa that require digital skills. And that just as a, if we look at, sort of infrastructure and systemically, one thing that needs to happen across the continent is the acceleration

of skill development in the digital space because even jobs that are pretty manual right now are going to require, a digital capability. And so that alone, if that was a key focus for public private partnership in terms of digital skill upliftment, the impact of that broadly, both in terms of people at

entry and junior worker, or even manual worker level to, the leaders that at Jack Hammer, that’s what my focus is, is how do I attract leaders to come back? There’s gotta be people for there and businesses and opportunities for them that are growing on the continent in order to warrant that, consideration in terms of, wow, that’s an opportunity worth coming back for. So, okay. There’s the job side, which I mean is, we could devote an entire conversation around that, but there’s, too much else to get to. So, aside from jobs, and let’s just be clear, people do come back, particularly for big jobs. I see that at Jack Hammer. That’s what we primarily do when it comes to, finding

top people with global experience, but nevertheless, a local national, in one of the 24 countries that we work in, we are looking in the diaspora. And they do come back. They come back primarily for a great job, to have family around when the kids are young. To be immersed in their community or their culture.

I mean, both you and I know what it’s like to be, living and working abroad and it’s definitely, it’s not a walk in the park. There are many times when I question my sanity, and so from what you’ve seen. What, let’s talk about skilled workers. Let’s talk about, people that sort of, who’ve got the education, who’ve done a st stunt in a global multinational or a startup or whatever it is, somewhere abroad in one of the weird countries.

I love that. Um, what motivates them to come back and what would we need to do to make it more appealing? And this is like job aside.

[00:13:37] Ronak Gopaldas: Yeah. that’s interesting because I’m starting to see this happen more and more anecdotally where it’s a serious consideration, especially for people of my age who have young families, you know, the gap between, the life that they envisage when they initially move and what the reality is is very different post pandemic and

for example, in the UK post Brexit, they say it’s the gap between emerging and submerging economies these days. It’s narrowing and people move back for I think three things, right? They move back for community, for a better quality of life, and they move back for comforts and convenience.

And, those are the pull factors, but they’re also push factors, right? So the current zeitgeist of anti-immigration sentiment, Individualistic societies in, in a lot of the western world, lack of community, the cost of everything, is all kind of push factors that are suggesting that actually, when you move, when you’re young, it’s great.

You go on adventure, you try build things, you try to do things, but the older you get, the more you think about purpose, legacy, family. And as you know, childcare costs, in these so-called weird countries are really challenging. So, that, that kind of trade off, is becoming less and less of a consideration.

You know, the trade offs everywhere in the world you go. For example, I always use the example of Joburg, you know, great people, warm weather, great restaurants, great bars, but infrastructure and safety is an issue. London, on the other hand, theater, art, culture, great access. It’s the center of the world, but it’s bloody expensive and it’s quite individualistic, right? So I think the challenge then becomes how do you manage this talent where, and create the pathways to move back? Because you know a lot of folks who move, they keep Africa in their hearts, but not necessarily in their business models because you know, you look at your currency depreciating, you look at your standing in a global context and you look at salaries back home.

So I think this is a challenge for a lot of companies. How do you retain a this talent that has got international skills and wants to work internationally and can kind of do the hybrid thing, but also kind of wants to have a local impact. And then, it’s become a bit easier with remote work and digital connectivity.

But then there’s also something around purpose. Because in Africa you can do well and you can do good simultaneously. And a lot of people I know have kind of done the corporate rat race in London, New York, Paris. Are a bit tired. Their soul is energized when they are solving real world problems. And if they do that, they make money and they’re successful as well.

So there’s this kind of purpose element around people moving back home as well when combined with the fact that, it’s not all sunshine and roses in the western world. It’s not the nineties and early two thousands anymore. I think this is creating this far more mo momentum for people wanting to return home, but still kind of having one foot, outside as well.

[00:16:27] Debbie Goodman: Okay, so, yes, I hear this all the time because we are speaking to people, Asking them to consider career opportunities back home. And then part of it is a real, we, what we hear all the time is, I wish I could come, but, and there’s usually a bunch of excuses and it’s usually related to usually the trying to make the finances work.

 Nevertheless, there could be incentive opportunities that either companies or potentially even governments could be considering in order to I wouldn’t say pave the way with gold, but at least make it a little easier. So you were mentioning Mauritius, uh, have got sort of like a, a tax break for returnees.

Um, share more a little bit about that.

[00:17:12] Ronak Gopaldas: Yeah. So Mauritius has quite an innovative, scheme called the Diaspora scheme, where you know, they are trying to encourage the global talent with skills who’ve, got good degrees, who’ve got international experience, who can really add value and contribute to the economy domestically to come back and to return.

And the whole bunch of concessions and allowances from a tax perspective, from, you know, bringing in a car from property purchases, which they are offering to skilled people who are maybe a little bit tired of their life, abroad. They wanna be closer to their family, they want a slower pace of life.

 and I think that’s something that, that, that could set a precedent for other countries who I could incentivize their best and brightest minds to return and give them incentives. Now, the practicalities, of course, need to be worked out. Each country is different, as we’ve mentioned. the policy con contours, need to be managed, as does the local sentiment and politics.

 Something like this in a small country like Mauritius is probably not gonna whip up a lot of resentment. But at the same time, the other countries that have diaspora schemes, Israel, India, et cetera. And I think our policy makers need to think a little bit more creatively around how they incentivize smart, talented people to come and contribute to their economies, right? And I think if you’re an entrepreneur, if you’re a professional, the thing that you want more than anything else is to trust the system, You know, because talent goes where and capital goes, where it’s rewarded, where it’s predictable, where governance is sound, and when the direction of travel is positive.

So of course there are all these financial incentives, tax holidays, startup capital, foreign income exemptions, ease of doing business. Those are all important, but we also need to think about the system, right? but more than anything else, I think trust is the currency here to get people to come home because, building a business is not easy. Relocating your family is not easy. And if the currency blows in you, you effectively lose 30, 40% of your value, then that’s gonna look like a stupid decision. So I think these are some of the dilemmas that people are battling where maybe they’ll get more professional fulfillment when they come back, but personally and from an earnings perspective, it doesn’t really make sense to them.

[00:19:22] Debbie Goodman: So let’s talk about the creativity that we’re saying. Okay. Could governments get more creative? I am also thinking that, companies can get more creative, particularly in a world where, theoretically if you’re just awake in the certain time zone in which you do business, you can work remotely.

And just as there are many, global organizations in the US and Europe Dubai et cetera, who are leveraging African and certainly South African resources in an offshoring capacity, could more and more corporates think about how they might actually be able to utilize the skills and experience

potentially even fractionally or part-time, of Africans who are currently abroad. it’s potentially a little bit more work, but there is no reason why in this world where we are looking at different ways of working, not just the remoteness of it, but also the part-time ness of it, the gig worker approach to thinking about, there are people, maybe they’ve got a full-time job somewhere else, but we could, we use a fraction of their time in order to use them in an advisory capacity or, or part-time in our organization.

I mean, Ronak, I live on the west coast of America. I’m nine hours behind South Africa. As long as I wake up early enough in the morning, I still do pretty much a full day, working Central Africa time. granted it’s a little bit of a push and I’ve got other motivations to do that, but when we’re talking about the circular economy, I spend a large amount of my time working on, initiatives, projects, building relationships with people.

Globally around their business interests on the continent. And so that I think is what we’re talking about around this like circular economy, about the fact that one could look at me, for example, and say, well, that’s a, a loss to South Africa or the rest of Africa. And I’m going, hold on a second, take a closer look here.

Actually, yes, I happen to be physically located on another continent. Very, uh, you know, very inconvenient time zone, yet the work that I do is nevertheless plowing back into the continent. And I’m not unique. I think that there are more and more people and, organizations that with some creativity could think of harnessing talent in this way.

[00:21:34] Ronak Gopaldas: Yeah. I com completely agree with you. I mean I think that the sweet spot, we’ve often joked about is if you can do summer and summer, if I can do summer in Europe and then summer back home, it would be great if you can earn hard currency, earn dollars or euros and kind of spend in a soft currency.

That would be great. The same time, there’s this purpose piece where you can do well and you can do good. And there’s the digital dividend, which makes this a reality. So, and then in the context of, the change in global context, what people call globalization. I think all of these factors are pointing towards, an opportunity for somebody to design something and to create something which can accommodate a world which is not either or anymore, which is both

and, and for a lot of people they also don’t want to be in the same place forever. Right? Like I

[00:22:20] Debbie Goodman: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:21] Ronak Gopaldas: look at boomers, they typically lived in the same house 30 years, went overseas maybe like twice before they were 30. And then, traveled, not much post that. But you know, this generation, millennials, gen Zs

travel far more extensively, far more globally connected. We’ve got digital devices and things like that, so the world has changed and it’s not so much an either or discussion anymore, it’s both and. So, and I think that’s the interesting piece that companies are gonna need to think about. To retain your best and brightest mind that has that this time and location flexibility in this world of anywhere, anytime, any place, work, what is the secret sauce and what are the right incentives to, to get the best and the brightest talent, even if it is like you mentioned on a fractional or an incremental basis, but how do we still derive the positive benefits out of that, I think is important.

[00:23:13] Debbie Goodman: to add to all of that, I think there’s also this moment in time. I certainly had a sense of that when I was, was in Abidjan a few weeks ago, and it’s coming at the time when there’s all of the uncertainty regarding US Africa trade relationships and, certainly as you call it, you’ve got some great

terminology there, the slowbalization. I’m gonna sound smart after this ’cause I have spoken to you. but the global climates has shifted. okay. Brexit feels like a million years ago, but now we are seeing something kind of similar happening in the US. There’s like right now, this month, student visa

crackdowns. it feels like there’s like the closing of doors. could this potentially be another opportunity for Africa? Could it be like an opening of door moments where people who were examining the risk factors and the idea around prosper prosperity and the idea around feeling like you belong in a place where, if organizations were thinking about putting in a program or governments were thinking about how do we address this issue.

 Now could be the moment to pounce because we’re at this moment in time where what may have felt like a no never, is changing into a okay, yes. Maybe

[00:24:24] Ronak Gopaldas: Yeah. Uh.

[00:24:25] Debbie Goodman: think about it.

[00:24:26] Ronak Gopaldas: I think, I think, you know, I always say that in Africa our challenges are our opportunities and our risks are rewards and nobody’s coming to save us. Africa needs to develop its own solutions, to its own problems. and I think that current global context, has created a window where there are opportunities and there is maybe a wave to capitalize on if you think about where the global economy is going and what some of the macro.

And meta trends are, we know that we’re going greener. so climate and energy transitions are reshaping every energy e every industry, sorry. we know that we’re going more digital and of course a lot of the critical minerals required to power these digital services and AI and the likes are found in Africa.

And we know that, we are going more regional because supply chains are changing and shortening and local Rather than global is in. And that’s where something like the continental free trade agreement can become quite important. And so we’ve got demographics, we’ve got critical minerals, we’ve got renewable energy, potential coastlines.

So if we play our cards right, and we’re in the middle of a global power war. If we play our cards right as the African continent, we do stand to benefit, but that’s gonna require good leadership, proper vision, and being strategic, and clever in how we play the economic diplomacy game. I think if you look at this holistically, there’s lots of opportunities to build this economy of the future. And it sounds a bit paradoxical because on the one hand, half the time the wifi doesn’t work, we can’t name streets, we have potholes. But on the other hand, we know that innovation is driven by necessity in Africa. And we can leapfrog and we can create things like, the often used example of MPESA where we skipped stages in connectivity because this is kind of, this is what happens in Africa. people innovate to survive. and so I think the key here is in developing the infrastructure that enables it, whether it’s hard infrastructure, the roads, the railways, the bridges, the trains, the likes, whether it’s a soft infrastructure, which I think is really important to developing human capital.

So education, healthcare, and giving, you know, Young workers, the opportunity to develop the skills they need to thrive. And then digital, that’s often overlooked when we talk about infrastructure. Um, we need data centers. We need digital skills, literacy, we need all of these things.

Because that’s gonna, that’s gonna be what propels African economies to participate in this, this modernizing new fifth industrial revolution and this economy of the future. But at the same time, we need to invest in our systems, because we’ve got very shallow capital markets. you know, our venture capital systems are underdeveloped.

 and that’s why a lot of the best and brightest leave because they can’t scale. So I think, for me the underlying golden thread over here is an infrastructure. If we can create and build and invest and the right infrastructure, combine that with skills and thinking long-term and with a bit of vision, there is definitely an opportunity, but it’s gonna come down to the quality of our leadership.

[00:27:25] Debbie Goodman: Well, yes, it’s always about the quality of leadership. That’s why I’m in business. I was gonna ask you if you had a magic wand, what would you do? But you’ve just answered my question. and you know, when people use the word build the infrastructure, it sounds like a bit of a dry term, but there’s so many facets.

To that you just spoke about, at least 10 issues that need to be addressed probably more. I think we all know there’s always gonna be issues. my message after, as we draw to a close here is, for anybody who’s listening, who’s even considering whether return. To their home country might be a possibility now might be the moment for organizations who are thinking about, how do we really not just plug the brain drain, because I think that’s an old framework.

 but how do we harness talent that’s abroad? I think there are many ways to do that. Now might be the real moment, to act. And, I’m just hoping that there is creativity and collective and narrative around branding the opportunity of coming back home in a way that feels like an uplift as opposed to anything else.

’cause I really think that, we’re in a zeitgeist in a moment in time where returning to Africa is, it is, has never been more opportune.

[00:28:38] Ronak Gopaldas: Yeah.

[00:28:39] Debbie Goodman: So last words.

[00:28:41] Ronak Gopaldas: Yeah, maybe if I can just say one thing. We’ve, we’ve touched on the quality of leadership and how outdated and unimaginative that it’s been for a long time. we’ve got analog leadership for a digital age, and I think one of the biggest issues around this, and this applies to politics and the corporate world, is that our leadership cycles are too short term focused.

 they’re focused on preservation rather than progress. and I think over here we need to think really hard about. Incentives. because you know, if you become an executive at a corporate entity, you keep the seat warm often for five years, don’t rock the boat unwell, but you don’t think for the future.

And same thing with our politicians, right? You, get elected for four or five years depending on the country, and you try and enrich yourself often. But the reality is that for the African continent to prosper and I’ll kind of leverage this ancient Greek proverb over here. a society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit.

And I think that is our big challenge. We need younger, more visionary leadership to try and kind of create the future that doesn’t exist yet.

[00:29:46] Debbie Goodman: All right, well on that beautiful Greek proverb, let’s draw to a close. Thank you so much for joining me. This has been an amazing conversation and let’s all hope for planting trees that will grow under which you will never sit. Right. Okay, bye now.