Jurie Strydom, Group CEO of Old Mutual: Why Speed and Candor Are Non-Negotiables Leading a 179-Year-Old Institution

Debbie: [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to On Work and Revolution, the CEO series. I’m your host, Debbie Goodman, CEO of Jack Hammer Global. Africa’s largest executive search boutique operating in 24 countries across the continent. I’m also a CEO coach. I work with top leaders around the world. In everything I do, my goal is very simple. To help companies and leaders to create amazing workplaces.

Just simple. This is season four of the podcast, which feels kind of incredible actually. this season I’m going deep with CEOs, many of whom I’ve known for years, to try and unpack their real personal behind the scenes leadership journeys. Like not the PR version that you get sent on the on the bio, the real version. And today my guest is someone I’ve known within the industry for quite some time, and whom I’ve always admired for his clarity of [00:01:00] thinking. And the way he brings intellect, composure, and like real down to earth ness in every conversation. I’m delighted to welcome Jurie Strydom, Group CEO of Old Mutual. Jurie stepped into the role earlier this year after serving as a non-executive director on Old Mutual’s board, which is kind of an unusual, interesting route to the top job. Before that he led major businesses within the Sanlam Group, including CEO of Sanlam Life and Savings. Prior to that CEO of Regent Insurance and CEO of Alexander Forbes Life. And he is built a reputation, in my view, as a highly capable operator who just really knows how to stand at the helm and lead the ship. Which is a nautical reference. I’m not entirely sure where that came from, but today I’m looking very forward to going a bit beyond the headlines and the results and all of those [00:02:00] CEO titles.

Today we’re gonna talk about what it was really like to interview for the CEO job with a board he was already sitting on. The truth about trying to change and shift culture in a large legacy organization. The realities of being in the public and the market spotlight every single day. It’s a publicly listed company. And then like what changes professionally, personally, when you become Group CEO of a 179-year-old institution? Jurie, welcome.

Jurie: Hi Debbie.. Yeah, thanks. Nice to see you. Nice to be with you.

Debbie: Thank you. Okay, so we’ve known each other in the industry for a number of years. I know you’re direct, you’re considered, which is perfect for today. ’cause I wanna get straight into

the behind the scenes

version of things. Listeners of this podcast, uh, the feedback I get is that they like really wanna understand what’s, what it’s actually like to step into [00:03:00] one of South Africa’s most consequential leadership roles, which I know sounds great, but I’m sure it’s not a walk in the park at all.

Jurie: Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think you had a nautical reference just now, uh, in my, in my time where I had a little bit more time where I was sort of a non-exec, and I, and I was doing some ministry work and some NGO work and so on. I got into sailing, so I actually bought a, I bought a dinghy. I’ve got a speedboat, like a, like a motorboat, my, for my kids, and then I, then I bought dinghy

which I bought in May and then, which about April this year, put it at the sort of little vlei yacht club down the road. And then I bought a cover for it for winter, which, you know, just preserves the thing. And not only have I not taken the dinghy out once, ’cause I got this job about two weeks later.

I haven’t even driven 10 minutes to go and put the cover on over winter. The cover is still folded. The new cover lying in my study. That kind of tells you, my son is like, dad, [00:04:00] what is going on with this sailing? The sailing story of ours? You know?

Debbie: Yeah. All those promises you made about all those fun things you’re gonna do in the dinghy. Okay, well I think that’s your weekend job to go and

put the cover on the, on the dinghy.

Jurie: The wind is coming in Cape Town, so we’ll give, maybe we’ll give that a go. Yeah.

Debbie: Okay, so let’s go back. Go back a bit. The interview process. I wanna talk about that because now you’re sitting on the board and how do you prepare for an interview with the board who already knows you, and did you have to step off?

What was their whole experience like?

Jurie: You know, so the thing compartmentalizes, right? So very quick. I could, it totally Everyone compartmentalizes. You compartmentalize. So, so there’s a process, there’s a subcommittee. It runs, you’re just like any other candidate. and you just go through the process. And then when you go to, if there’s another board meeting about another topic.

Everyone, you know, you just carry on. Um, so, so strangely Yeah. You, you compartmentalize. I think what is different, I suppose, is that, well, I think different candidates, I mean, I’ve been in these things on both [00:05:00] sides and actually on panels and so on. I think that what quite interesting, like what is your expectation of different candidates.

I think if you’re a complete outsider, then on the one hand you can, there you can, you’re not expected to have a deep understanding of the business. You, you, but you’re expected to bring that kind of outside perspective. If you’re an insider, it’s completely different. And then if you’re a NED, I suppose, somewhere in between where you’re not an insider in the sense of management, but, but you, you need to know the business.

You should know the business if you’ve been on the board for a while. Um,

Debbie: Yeah.

Jurie: so I, I actually personally found it to be quite a, to, to be a relatively low stress process in that way. Maybe just because I felt, look. That, which I know of the business I’ve spent, I’ve, I’ve gone through six board rounds here.

Whatever. I know, I know. And whatever. I don’t, I don’t, you know. Um,

so in that sense, I didn’t find it, uh, a difficult process. But of course, you know what is true is that you are part of it like any other candidate. If you don’t get the job, you go back a NED, you know?

Debbie: Yeah. [00:06:00] Okay. Okay. So that was the, my next question was like, did you think, okay, well if I don’t get the job, it’s low stakes so I’ll just continue being a non-exec. I’ll stay on the

board.

Jurie: Yeah. Yeah,

Debbie: Um, was there a, a moment of like, if I don’t get this, it’s gonna be like really bad for me?

Jurie: I mean, no, I, I, I don’t think I felt that pressure. I mean, if you go back, I sort of stepped out of exec, the sort of exec life a couple years before, and I’d put together this portfolio of things that I wanted to do, and part of it was. Part of it was having time, a bit more time for a season, you know, with and taking advantage of that.

Debbie:

Jurie: and so I, I think that I felt that I, I mean, what did happen in the course of then when the opportunity arose is I’d had time to get to know the business a bit. And I guess I sort of thought, Ooh, I, I actually, this could be quite interesting to do. You know, this is interesting enough to sort of take me out of this comfortable life I’ve created and, and go into a flat out executive role again.

 So if I’d not got it, I might’ve thought, oh, actually having got excited, maybe I should at some point think about [00:07:00] doing something like this again. But as far as Old Mutual is concerned, I definitely would’ve carried on as a NED. I yeah.

Debbie: Okay, so I mean, low-ish stakes, different from if you had been an internal candidate. ’cause we know then when people don’t get the job, it’s

significant for them and has quite wide reaching impact. But I know every time we engage with a candidate who puts the time, energy, and effort into interviewing for a role like this, it becomes a thing that they want.

And so anyway,

you got the job.

Jurie: Think that’s true. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s absolutely true. I think once you in it, you know, and I, and I don’t think you must be in it if you don’t really want it to be honest. ’cause it is actually, we’ll get to that, but it’s, it’s extremely hard work, right? So it’s a big commitment that you need to want it.

Debbie: yeah. Okay. So then, do you remember where you were when you got the call

Jurie: I do actually.

I do, I was, yeah, I was having coffee with a friend.

Debbie: Tell me about that.

Jurie: I was having coffee with a, with a friend and I actually missed the call from the chairman, the first call.

Debbie: Mm-hmm.

Jurie: Um, in fact, I might have missed the first couple of calls. And then eventually he was like,

Why are you so hard to get [00:08:00] ahold of? Why you’re not expecting a call from me? So, um, yeah, that was where I was, I broke away from my coffee with a friend and, and managed to take the call.

Debbie: Okay. And then the first thought that crossed your mind when you got the call, do

you remember? Like put, just put yourself back there, like

Jurie: would say combination of excitement. And also, the minute it starts to happen, of course the clock starts to tick in your mind. You’re like, okay, so now. Thinking ahead, what is it gonna involve? And there, there’s obviously a process that then unfolds before it goes public, which you know, is a while.

And, then you’ve also got, well who, who can you tell? You already only tell your wife, you know, um, can’t really tell anyone about this. You’ve got this life changing thing that’s about to happen to you and you can’t discuss with anyone. Um, so actually in a sense, when it goes public and it, and the announcements get out the way, that’s when actually it’s almost a relief when that happened for me.

 Because then you’re like, okay, now I can actually get on with it. There’s no secrets. You know? Um, we can get on with this.

Debbie: Okay. You see, you should have gone to take [00:09:00] the cover

Jurie: I, I absolutely should have. Yeah.

Debbie: That was a missed, A missed moment.

Jurie: There’s probably,

Debbie: Okay.

Jurie: by the Cape Winter. There’s probably nothing left.

Debbie: so, now you arrive. Day one on the job. your first, I don’t know, week or so as CEO. Now you’ve been sitting on the board. You kind of know what’s going on, but not

really. what surprised you the most? the like internal behind the scenes reality that you only discover once you’re actually there in the chair.

Jurie: I think the look, the fire hose of the job and the demands of the job, I think you always underestimate, and I, I shouldn’t have underestimated it. And, and in theory you don’t, but once you get it, of course a different experience to observing it from the outside. I know one of one of my friends in the investment industry, I saw him shortly afterwards and he said, you know Old Mutual, like ages people, you know that. He’s like, it’s gonna, it’s gonna put like in five years, you’re gonna put 30 years in you, you know?

And I, because [00:10:00] he was like, you know, I know these guys. This is what it does. So I think there is a profile to it. People have a feel ’cause it’s a national institution that’s been around so long. Everyone’s got an opinion, everyone’s got a stake in it.

Everybody. And I, I mean, it’s positive. ’cause actually I find people want us to succeed. People want Old Mutual to be Old Mutual. So it’s positive, but then it does mean that, it’s a fire hose of demands and I think coming in midway through the year, like in May, I mean, I, I got the job, I think it was announced like the 9th of May. I think the 10th of May

I came in to get my laptop, and just ’cause I had a sense like, listen, this. Midyear, this train is, is moving. It’s not leaving the station. It’s moving. You need to get on. and I think the, I think that next, I mean the, the EXCO annual breakaway was the week after, or 10 days later.

 and so, you know, and that’s like an annual event. And then the board off site is six weeks later. And you kind of have a, you know, there’s a sentiment when you’re CEO. The, the clock does start ticking for you. So investors say, listen, take your time. But if I could see in about three or four months, it’d be nice to know what you wanna do.[00:11:00]

You know what your strategy is. Media says, listen, relax, don’t worry about it. But in three months if we could talk to you, that’d be good. And then,

but then you add it all up and actually you’ve got a limited timeframe, sort of get your stuff clear and get everybody aligned around it. Right? we, we can’t go external with the strategy

or the communication with, without getting people aligned. So that was the, what the last six months have been about? Actually,

Debbie: So that like fabled first a hundred days is not just an urban legend. It’s like within a hundred days you, if with a, certainly with a publicly traded company, you need to be seen to have some kind of directional view

Jurie: no. I certainly wanted to do that. And maybe it was also ’cause I’d been on the board so I just felt like that was the right, it was the right thing to do would be to, to try and provide the appropriate amount of clarity.

Debbie: Right.

Jurie: and not, and not, and not kick it into 27 and say, or 26 rather, but to actually say, guys, this year, we will try and provide you with appropriate clarity.

Debbie: Okay, so clarity has come in like a couple of different ways so far as [00:12:00] I’ve observed, on the one hand there’s some culture changes, right? Culture is my favorite topic, and I know from the leaders I speak to, it is the hardest thing to shift, particularly in a legacy organization like this. I mean, Old Mutual is big.

It’s legacy. It’s, some would say, not the fastest out the gates, right? It’s got its old school ways, so. If you could wave a magic wand and like dismantle one cultural norm that you go, this is no longer helpful people, what would it be?

Jurie: Yeah, interesting. I mean, so one of the things that comes in, obviously in a organization like this is this idea that everything’s complicated and it takes a long time.

And this is a thing which comes up all the time. Like, well what about this? Well, it’s very complicated. It’s gonna take a long time.

 And so I think that there is stuff that’s complicated. It takes a long time. I mean, that is true, but I think trying to, one of the [00:13:00] things we talk about a lot actually as a, as a team, and even at, at our senior leaders leadership levels, is to try and say, guys, how do we.

I mean, decision making is the thing that unlocks speed. The cement on speed on the cogs of the machine is, is slow decision making often, right? So there’s lots of things you can’t control, but you can control how quickly you work to get to a point of clarity to be able to make a decision.

 if you can’t make a decision, can you, what information do you need to make a decision and then can you get to a no regret decision at least where you can say, well, what can we actually do that’s going to put us in a better position to make the next call, and not get frozen?

So that’s some of the stuff that I’m trying to, that I, I drive quite hard. It’s a sort of mini, it’s a mini obsession of mine is to like drive constantly pushing for what is the decision we are waiting to make here. And, and if there’s no new information, conceivably, then why are we not making this call?

 trying to give people a license to think in that [00:14:00] way, you know? Um,

Debbie: I’m, I’m seeing all these cans that typically get kicked down the pathway, that old mutual park

Jurie: yeah,

Debbie: in the passage. Let’s just kick this can a little bit further.

Jurie: it’s normal for organizations and it’s a bit of, it’s risk management as well, but I, I think the unlock is to say, okay, well. Again, there’s no regret thing. Like what do we know? This is what we don’t know and, and can we not just move forward a bit and make a decision, which then takes us through.

And it’s so, you know, you must know that the one door, one-way door vs the two-way door. is this a one-way door? Is it a two-way door? If it’s a one, if it’s a two-way door, maybe we go through and we see what’s on the other side, and if we absolutely have to, we come back. But, but waiting, wondering, is kind of that corporate cement,

Debbie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I just generally see this, the sort of like the slower decision making or the unwillingness to make quick decisions is usually because there’s a fear of some kind of recrimination or a fear of, you know, if you make a mistake, what are the outcomes

of that? Now, when you create a culture where it’s okay to make mistakes, just because you gotta make a [00:15:00] decision, and that comes from the top, seriously.

Jurie: I, I, I say to people, one of my favorites, like, I love. I love when, when people are making decisions while I’m sleeping. Like that’s amazing. Like, it’s amazing when you come in and you hear people have gotten on with stuff and they’ve made calls, you are like, huh, okay. And they did not ask for permission.

They got on with it, you know. So try and create license within bounds to allow people to do that. And typically the big calls organizations like us have got the safeguards on the big calls, right? So, so.

Debbie: Mm-hmm.

Jurie: We typically don’t err on the governance side. Like, like on not having governance. We err on having governance.

 so it’s actually, you’ve gotta push a little bit the other way and ask people to, to run with stuff. Take ownership.

Debbie: Yeah, no, you could, try, living 10 hours behind everybody else like I do. By the time I’ve woken up in

the, the decisions, the more the morning decisions have already been made. Yeah, exactly. So I’m living that right now. Okay. So there’s the culture stuff and then there’s the cost [00:16:00] discipline. ’cause you’ve been very front and center talking about cost savings and I don’t wanna go into the detail of that.

I mostly wanna understand how you land a message without crushing morale or creating resentment before you even out of the starting blocks because cost savings typically fundamentally impact culture, actually, and everything. So how’s that going?

Jurie: Yeah, it’s simple and it’s complicated, isn’t it? I mean, I think it’s simple to say we wanna do it and to acknowledge the need to do these things and so on. But then of course, the closer you come to actually doing those things and dealing with real people and real consequences, of course it’s, of course it’s much harder.

 I think that cascading linking it to goals. linking it to this is what you need to achieve in your business and actually even within your business in the sub pieces of your business. That’s what your people need to achieve. That’s what your leaders need to take ownership of.

And if cost savings is a part of that, then giving people [00:17:00] room to work out how to do that themselves. And I think not imposing a corporate formula. I, I think personally that’s the thing I think works best. ’cause what you want people to do is to say, okay, if I’ve gotta take out X cost, this is how we’re gonna do it.

It’s not easy. But, I can acknowledge I’ve been given an opportunity to optimize this. what you don’t want is people having to do stuff and then they say, well actually, you know, we never thought this was a good idea and we told you that it wasn’t going to work. And actually this is why we can’t hit our revenue numbers.

Debbie: Yeah.

Yeah. They

Jurie: So cascading, giving people ownership

Debbie: prove you’re

Jurie: and, and then, but then also the support to make sure that, that one’s thoughtful about it. and you do the best you can to manage the impact on people. and that’s got to do with how much cost you’re talking about over what timeframe and so on.

Right.

Debbie: Well, I know that it’s an, an, it’s an unpleasant process to go through for everybody,

actually. but I suppose if you can do it in the most empowering way, then kind of like the least friction, it’ll be interesting to see how that [00:18:00] unfolds because it’s such a thorny topic.

Jurie: Yeah, and I think you’ve gotta be, it’s gotta be coupled with how do we simplify how we do things? What are we things we’re not going to do, you know? So, so people don’t get overwhelmed where everyone. Where people think, well, they, you know, they’ve gotta do the same thing, but with, with, with just, you know, by, by, by putting more time into it.

Debbie: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And by the way, we are not talking about ai this conversation,

so, we are gonna veer completely away from that. I wanna go into your more, your personal journey. so you’ve been CEO before, um, but this feels like it’s different, the scale, the history of the company, the, the scrutiny.

 what’s changed in your life professionally, personally, what’s, does it feel different to you?

Jurie: yeah, it does feel different. there is a scale to it. there’s a, something of a kind of public profile to it that’s a little bit different to before. I see, I dunno if you saw Oliver Beta from, Allianz has put a [00:19:00] thing out on LinkedIn where he was like, when you become CEO your jokes become funnier and your ties become, yeah.

You’ve got better ties than you had before, even though the same ties, people complimenting your ties. Not that I wear ties, not that I wear Tyre off, but I mean I think you, you’ve gotta become more aware that that people want to tell you what you want to hear, you know?

 and that’s just not just in the business. I think it’s, I think it’s externally as well. So you’ve gotta be, become more aware of, okay, what are people not telling me?

Debbie: mm.

Jurie: and then, there’s also, I, I think getting used to the idea of people who don’t, it’s actually not, I mean, it’s not your friends, it’s not people you, you’re close to, but the people who sort of vaguely know you

now associate you with this particular thing, which is Old Mutual. to them, you, you’re the guy who’s now the CEO of Old Mutual, And so

Debbie: Yeah.

Jurie: that’s okay.

Debbie: So, I mean, so that point that you mentioned about people are mostly wanting to tell you what you wanna hear and nobody wants to be the bad guy. And most people are, you know, people are flattering you, they’re telling you you’re amazing. you’re not always hearing the [00:20:00] hard truths. Do you nevertheless feel like you are getting the feedback that you need about you in an as honest a way

Jurie: mean, it’s, it’s

the thing that I, I, it is the thing that I think one has to try really hard at. I think by definition, I don’t think everybody, I don’t think you get it completely right, but I do try to probe and I, I like to surround myself with people and have a relationship with people such that they can challenge me and do challenge me.

So I also like to work with people who are like, Hey, listen. I know you said this, but quietly, you know, I think that’s, well, not so quietly, like, I don’t, I think that’s nonsense. You know,

that’s,

 I like to have those kinds of people around me.

Debbie: Yeah. I think regardless of the size of business, it’s uh, in inevitable that people will be watching their own backs to a degree and not necessarily wanting to give unfavorable feedback to their boss.

Jurie: Yeah. And I think a safe environment, you gotta create safety as well, right? So I guess that’s the

Debbie: well like it.

Jurie: yeah.

Debbie: It completely [00:21:00] depends on how you respond to the feedback, whether you’ll ever hear anything truthful

or honest from anybody ever

Jurie: Yeah. I think that’s, I, I think that’s right.

Debbie: okay.

 I.

wanna go back a bit, Jurie. Was there a moment in your earlier career where you realized you’re aiming for CEO? ’cause you have had successive CEO titles, and is there something in sort of like your growth. Or a part of your career where all of a sudden you cotton on that you are made for more, want more, can do more, that the getting to the helm is the direction you’re gonna go for.

Jurie: So I think that I’ve known you for a long time, you know me, but I’ve always loved leading and I’ve enjoyed leading and so. I do think, and I was very fortunate at a very, at a relatively young age to be given opportunities to lead, albeit smaller pieces, you know, smaller organizations, but with quite high degrees of autonomy.

 and so I kind of have always known about myself that I, that I do love to lead. I did get, I, [00:22:00] I would say somewhere, interestingly, somewhere, somewhere in my four early forties, I think I kind of concluded though that actually aiming for successively bigger organizations is not like one must be careful about that because in the end,

there’s always someone who’s got a bigger job than you, right?

I mean, there’s always someone who’s running an organization a hundred times the size of what you’re doing, and so one must. So it’s actually the, the job satisfaction can’t come from, okay, well, I just wanna keep running things that are bigger and bigger. It’s actually gotta come from the impact and having an impact in the here and now,

on this place and on these people and doing a good job of that. And you know, I actually, I’ve kind of been very grateful. I got to a place of, uh, I think of convincing myself that I’m grateful enough for the things that I’ve had the opportunity to do that I’m kind of, I try to prioritize the content of the job and not the size of the job.

You, you know,

Debbie: I mean, I remember chatting to you, post Sanlam when you were busy doing like portfolio of things and I seem to [00:23:00] remember that it wasn’t necessarily the next absolute definite must-have aspiration for you. You seem to be going on a path that could meander in a range of different directions.

Jurie: Yeah. and actually you do also, and that season of my life actually did teach me you can make a difference that is really satisfying, that’s not dependent on people putting you in charge of something enormous, right? it could be that you just make an impact and the world loves to volunteer as well, right?

So,

 if you’ve got skills to bring and you’re willing to volunteer, there’s that as well. the Ned job also one of the, one of my other headhunter friends said to me, it’s eyes in hands out, you know? And that’s a hard thing for executives to learn to do.

And so that was quite an important season for me to actually learn more about that. Because actually when, when organizations get bigger, inevitably they, they’re not one organization. I mean, in our case, there’s five businesses, right?

Um, and actually to some extent, I’ve gotta learn to influence those businesses and those teams and so on. But [00:24:00] without having my hands in those businesses, it’s not, it’s. Other people

who need the autonomy to do that.

Debbie: Oh, I never, I never actually thought about that. the NED role really preparing you for the, what you just said, uh, eyes in, hands out because you can’t get operationally involved in a business of this size and scale. It’s just impossible.

Jurie: Yeah. Yeah. And you’ve gotta, you’ve obviously gotta back your people. and you’ve gotta empower them.

And then you, you’re trying to diagnose, what NEDs do, what NEDs need to do is you’re doing diagnostics the whole time, right?

You’re trying to say, look, what about this, what about that? I’m trying to get a picture of what is going on and trying to be as helpful as you can to the management team to say, Hey, are, have you thought about this? Have you thought about that? and having, having good NEDS, I, I think what I was trying to do as a NED is to be a, to do that well, in a constructive and, and in a helpful way.

Debbie: I mean, just for listeners, we’ve been talking about NEDs the whole time. NED is not a person. Ned is a non-executive director. Just

Jurie: not a restaurant. It’s not, it’s not a

Debbie: in case. Yeah,

All right, so now you’ve got a big family,[00:25:00]

Jurie wife, four kids, and then this very demanding role. You didn’t even get to fricking sort out this dinghy story or go

sailing with kids. Shame on you, but how on earth are you maintaining balance and particularly in like this early stage, ’cause it’s only been six months or so and I imagine it’s like just completely all consuming. So I know how important your family is to you, and are you, how are you doing it?

Jurie: Um, I think not well at this point. At this point. So I, I think,

I think the first six months have, have not, I mean, the first six months have been super intense, but we, you know, Louise and I Louise’s my wife. We kind of, and as a family, we kind of took it on and we said, okay, we know what this is. I can’t claim to not know what this is.

I knew exactly what it, what it was. And so, even with the kids, we were like, listen, it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be a season of, where there isn’t gonna be balance. And so, you know, one point my son, I said to, I said to him after about four months, I was like, Nate, what are you,

because he is 11, he is the [00:26:00] youngest. So he’s probably the one who’s, you know, the other, the others are a little bit older and one’s out the house. Um, for the last six months, I said to him like, are you okay? You know, how are things going? And he was like, look, I, it’d be really nice if you didn’t work on Saturdays.

 what he said to me. I was like, okay, that’s a, a blow to the gut. so it has been, in that sense, it’s been, I wouldn’t say I’ve got balance right? I’d be dishonest if I said that.

but I think, it is something that, you need to be, you need to find what balance is for you.

So for me, choose, I love this job. I do love the work. The reason I work. Look, the reason I’m kind of it’s intense is because I want it to be intense. so that’s also an honest, you gotta also be honest with yourself, right? Um, that, that you’re making those choices. and then I think it’s kind of about saying, okay, well what are the priorities?

 what are the kind of must haves and must dos? I hope to get it better in, in 2026. My team is like adamant that I need to get it better. My PA’s like, Hey, we can’t do this. We can’t carry on doing it like this. Uh, so we’ve gotta, figure out a better [00:27:00] way.

 it’s hard to do.

Debbie: It is hard. And actually that was not a, not the greatest question because at this level and the kind of work you’re doing, balance is bullshit. It’s like we are not trying for that. But there are seasons and I think what’s I’ve seen happen, and I’ve seen it myself and I’ve seen it with the many leaders I coach, is they go through their first season or one season, which is super intense for one reason or another, and then they forget what life was like before that.

When there was a little bit more variability, and then it’s just a continuum of the intensity that they step into. And that’s the place they stay for too

long, um, because it becomes

the habit. So I’m gonna

call you out on

Jurie: I, I, I mean, I, yeah,

Debbie: check how you’re

Jurie: own philosophy, I think that if you do a job like this, it needs to be a job that really energizes you and does kind of, you need to be tempted to be consumed by it because otherwise. Like, why would you be doing it? Right? Um, it’s gotta be something you love doing.

I think that for me, I, if you ask me in six months, I’d say, okay, I need to make [00:28:00] sure that the people in my life who I’m kind of like, who I need to love. You know? Like, I need, I need to make time for, and, that’s gotta be right. I don’t think you wanna look back year, 2, 3, 4 years and say, okay, actually I neglected those people who are really important, you know?

Um, but then, but yeah, sailing, sailing across the ocean. Uh, not so much for a while.

Debbie: Listen, there are other ways. All right. As you said at the beginning, you can rethink this whole thing of what it means to spend

quality time. I used to do a thing where, um, uh, once a week I used to fetch my kids from school, because I didn’t have

time in, the rest of the week. when, when I ask them like, what do you remember from those days? they remember that one thing the once a week their mom fetched him from

school and took them to the office for lunch. ’cause it was the quickest thing I

could do. But to them, this was like the best thing, which I know sounds a bit pathetic, but it was the only moment that I could find and that was very special to

Jurie: Yeah. And it’s, and it’s the intentionality of it, right? it’s like you give [00:29:00] someone a gift for Christmas. It’s not so much the gift, it’s the thoughtfulness. Like how much have you been intentional about this? Um, and so I think, I do think when it comes to time as well, and with kids, for example, beyond a, beyond a certain age, where then they’re not really looking to you to be caregiver in the same way they, they’ve got their own lives.

It comes down to kind of the intentionality, which you nurture that relationship. Like, okay, what do, what do we do together? You know?

Debbie: Exactly. Okay, so then I wanna ask about another personal habit. Like do you always seem, aside from maybe the last time I spoke to you, you always seem very energized

Jurie: I not energized? You told me I was tired. I was like, thanks so much. That’s so kind of you. You’re not the only person told me this.

Debbie: you. you can always rely on me to be honest. Um, so is there something you do, do you have like a, a personal habit that, that you are like, I have to do this because this is good for my energy levels. Have you got any good tips for other busy leaders or people.

Jurie: I’m energized, [00:30:00] so, I find I’ve gotta, I manage my schedule very carefully, like for what I wanna do and what time of the days. I’m an extrovert, I’m energized by people, so I actually find it easy to go back to back in the day. and kind of talk to people. what I, what you, what I find I’ve gotta strike the right balance of is kind of that versus deep work and making sure that I kind of, you know what I mean by deep work?

Obviously

Debbie: Mm-hmm.

Jurie: that preparation, that thoughtfulness, I mean all that, all those things, your reading time and so on. And I think different people have got different abilities to optimize that. I would say I err on the side of finding easy to engage with people, talk to people connect, but I’ve gotta be very disciplined about carving out time, for, for kind of that deep work.

So it’s about getting, when in the day do you do it? How do you manage it? ’cause one of the challenges actually of the CEO job, frankly it is just demand. It is just the demand on time, you know?

Debbie: Right. Right. And is there something that you do to sort of manage your energy [00:31:00] levels, is what I’m saying because these days we are speak, I’m speaking to some, particularly this side of the pond is everybody’s talking about the latest hack for high energy and they’re doing, red light frequency and, cold plunges and 5,000 different supplements.

I mean, the list

is long. Um, you, you into any of them?

Jurie: So, so I will tell you, I find a little daily sauna with the cold plunge is a big, is a refresh. That’s a,

That’s a little refresh.

Debbie: That’s your thing. Okay. Well, listen, that’s,

Jurie: 6:00 PM

6:00 PM It’s a, that works.

Debbie: amazing, okay. I was assuming it wasn’t like a can of Red Bull

Jurie: I do drink too much coffee in the morning. I do. I do.

Debbie: Okay. Um, so let’s just talk about some, some leadership stuff around the people element. ’cause you clearly get energized by people and the leading and the engaging, when you are appointing somebody, What do you, what [00:32:00] is like your absolute non-negotiable? What do you look for in sort of, uh, qualities about somebody, or even when you’re managing them, if you say, this is what I, this is something I’m just not prepared to compromise on.

Jurie: Hmm. I think, I mean, candor ca candor is really important to me and respect. We actually have this thing, and we’ve done it internally around this like candor with kindness, uh, where it’s like

both, both are essential. So you’ve gotta be able to speak the truth, you’ve gotta be able to deal with difficult issues.

You’ve gotta be not fearful about putting those difficulties on the table, but never at, never at the expense of treating people with brutality so I kind of look for those and if I’m doing referrals on people, I’ll also watch, I’ll be looking carefully for those.

I would say for those kind of two things.

Debbie: Mm-hmm. yeah, I mean I think that, I’m just thinking back to that book, Radical Candor, which I think, took, the leadership

world, uh, not by storm

entirely, and I was always very worried about some people who adopted this as

 [00:33:00] their leadership philosophy, but forgot about

the kindness

Jurie: Yeah,

Debbie: forgot about the respect bit, and it just gave license to people to act like

Jerk. Um, so,

Jurie: And that’s destructive for an organization. And when you give permission to that kind of behavior, it’s not right. It has consequences.

Debbie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, think ahead. Is there a story that you want told about your term as CEO? It’s like the, I mean, I hate like the, the idea of a legacy story is a bit of a cliche, but like, what do you want people to remember you by? as a leader, not as like a, a dead person.

Jurie: Yeah. I would like, I think I’d like people to observe that Old Mutual becomes a, is it, is it maybe a different kind of organization? It feels different it feels different to work within. I mean, there are lots of different ways of framing it, but we talked about like people being empowered and making decisions and so on, you know, and speed.

And, so that’s one element of it. The other thing I would [00:34:00] say is I, I, and I said, it occurred to me like a week ago when I was talking to a bunch of our leaders. I said, like, you wanna create an organization, I think, where people with authority, pe people carry authority because of their understanding of the customer they like,

 you have authority not because of hierarchy, but because of like your understanding of the customer. In fact, leaders feel compelled. Great organization leaders feel compelled to spend time with the customer, not as a chore, but actually because you don’t get to be taken seriously in organization if you, if the ideas you’re coming up with are not rooted in a deep understanding of the customer.

 Great organizations that I’ve observed have got that. Where people are like, okay, well let’s do this. We’re like, okay, well how rooted, how much time have you spent talking to actual customers or partners or spending time in the market on this? and I think where corporates get it wrong is that ideas can be taken too far that are not actually rooted in that.

Debbie: Mm.

Jurie: so, you know, part of it is setting an example. Part [00:35:00] of it is demanding from the leaders, but. But, that would be, yeah, that’d be something.

Debbie: That would be something I might outlive you in this role of seeing what happens to Old Mutual. ’cause I’ve been around a long time and I’ve still got a long way to go. I’ve watched Old Mutual from the sidelines.

So, um, yeah, that would be amazing actually. It would be absolutely amazing to see that kind of shift and change, which is subtle, but not so subtle actually.

 and that’s a really great direction and aspiration to head for.

Jurie: And I think, I mean, it’s, it’s sort of easy to define and something that many people do already, but, but everyone knows, big companies don’t easily, often don’t do that, you know? Right.

Debbie: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. A hundred percent. okay, I am gonna be watching the evolving story. I’ve got a couple more questions. so is there something that scares you about this job, about this leadership challenge? the role, like what lies ahead? Is there any, any time where you go, [00:36:00] oh wow, this is freaking me out.

Jurie: uh, if I’m, if I’m really vulnerable about it, I would say the personal cost and the kind of what we talked about earlier, it’s very easy if you’re in these jobs like I’m in this job ’cause I love doing this kind of work. And so I can tell myself that I’ve been consumed the last six months because it’s starting and it’s new.

But actually it’s also partly ’cause I just love doing this kind of work. And so then there’s always the next thing that you can tackle and, you know, six months, 12 months, once you’ve done some of the stuff you wanted to do, now you find new things to do. So part of it is just making sure that I’m. that I’m measured and I’m kept honest on that, you know?

Debbie: Yeah,

Jurie: yeah. And because you, the other thing is you want it to be sustainable and you, and, and I think, I think great CEOs make it sustainable for themselves that you have enough tenure that you can follow through to see things through, right? And part of that is

Debbie: Mm-hmm.

Jurie: sure that it is, you know, that it’s healthy.

Debbie: Yeah. I mean, that’s the truth of it here. It’s just, [00:37:00] uh, what makes you a great leader is this obsession and passion and love for the

work, and it’s the double-edged sword of at what cost.

Jurie: Yeah, I know. And, and, and that idea that other people are making you do it is nonsense, it’s not true.

Debbie: No, yeah. Absolutely. It’s the internal drive. okay, so lastly, one piece of advice for someone who’s sort of mid-career, who like you, perhaps earlier on, realized that they had the aptitude, the desire, the ambition to head for the CEO seat in some way or another. what advice would you give around what they should think about, what they should focus on? Habits they should adopt?

Jurie: I, I mean, I think that if you, so the temptation is, I think, and I certain you in in my life have had this temptation to think that, do we want to want more responsibility to be given more to, and you sort of wanna be noticed, right? You wanna be noticed that people give you this responsibility [00:38:00] and then you can deliver.

And, and actually, I mean, that is of course true part of it, part of making progress is that. But, but I think if I kind of look back at my younger self, I’d say you must cherish the opportunity to learn what you can learn in the job that you’re in. you need to worry a little bit less about sort of the opportunity of getting noticed and a little bit more of just if you’ve got confidence in yourself, just like put those, put that layer of expertise on to just, just develop those skills.

Develop those competencies and, and actually that’ll stand you in good stead, you know? to give you an example, like when I started my life, my first job in South Africa was in the pensions valuations department, at Sanlam.

I went in, I sat down day one, they gave me the valuations manual and they said, okay, you read that.

 now actually at the time, what I wanted to do was to get out of there, like to find some other, like. Cooler job to do.

Debbie: Mm-hmm. Any job

would be cooler than

Jurie: getting, you know, and, and I mean actually [00:39:00] factually I did get opportunity pretty early to be doing, to be not doing that. But actually looking back at it is the only time in your life, it was the only time in my life when I was gonna do that. It’s the only time in my life that I’m gonna be sitting with five other people in a cubicle and plugging away and kind of knowing what it’s like to be, to be doing that.

 and, and you’ll often hear leaders will refer back to experiences they had when they were not in positions of power, but they actually were like much lower down in the organization what the lessons they took from that, right?

You find yourself drawing on that a lot and you’re like, okay, I, I know what it’s like to be there when I speak. I know the guys are hearing me and they, you know, they’re hearing you for two minutes, but actually then they go back to life as it is, in wherever it’s part of the organization is that they’re operating in.

 so I think there’s like cherishing, cherishing the opportunity where you are and that there is time, typically. There’s time to get the, there’s time to get the bigger job. Um, I guess.

Debbie: Yeah. Well, I think that that is, that’s really brilliant advice, not something I’ve heard from leaders before. [00:40:00] And I think we’re gonna end on that mic drop moment because I run a tight ship. I asked for 45 minutes of your time. I’m about 50 seconds over. Thank you so much. This has just been fabulous as I knew it would be.

I really appreciate you and good luck for the next six months and beyond. I’m gonna call in again in about six months, see how that, uh,

Jurie: Hold to account.

Hold me to account.

Debbie: Oh, yes. Oh yeah. Okay.

Cheers,

Jurie: very much. Thanks very much. It’s been fun. Cheers. Cheers. Bye. [00:41:00]